CHAPTER FIFTEEN


RADIO TIME!



WCPN  "After 9"  Mon. 21.3.94

interview with Robert Malecki


Joe Smith:  Robert Malecki would like to return to this country and 
to his native Cleveland. Malecki fled the United States in the early 
1970,s rather than face pending conspiracy charges for anti-Vietnam 
war protests. Malecki had already served prison time for some of his 
other anti-war activities. He has written to present Bill Clinton 
asking for amnesty.

Robert M.:   This is a letter dated February 5, 1994 and it starts 
like this:  Dear Bill. a year and 16 days have gone since my last 
letter to you. Although you received my letter, I have a card here 
with the White House post stampel on it, I have not received an answer. 
Recently I saw you on the news here, it was amazing, you actually got 
the legislation through the house and the senate normalising relations 
and dropping the trade embargo with Vietnam. Wow! That's peace 
officially, 20 or 30 years, after the ending of hostilities. That 
makes me very happy and I am sure the Vietnamese people are very 
happy also. However, I am also sad. Peace at last, but for those 
of us still in exile, there is no peace. I am beginning to feel like 
the Japanese soldier who was found on a deserted island in the Pacific, 
25 years after the end of the Second World war, his first words being 
"is the war over". Well there's still people in exile whose only crime 
was trying to stop the war. They live in Vietnam, they live in Sweden,
underground in the United States and elsewhere, facing various charges 
from desertion to conspiracy. These people never got rich. They are     
decent people, who pay their taxes and live normal lives. There is 
also a great deal of sorrow and pain, because of the war. I for 
example had to write a letter to my children who have not seen me 
in 23 years. Ihad to explain to them what Bill Clinton did this week 
in terms that they could understand. That Bill is real pain! That 
pain was shared by millions of people, who had to write letters to 
their loved ones, who had been affected by the war.The Vietnamese 
people, why there is not one family who's not had a relative killed 
or maimed. The families of the 55,000 Americans who had sons who died 
in the war. The Vets who fought in the war and the Vets who fought 
against the war, I am one of the latter. Now that is real pain, Bill. 
Not to mention the mothers and children who were left behind to pick 
up the pieces, they are probably the real heroes in all this. So how 
about Bill? Or is it just the business guys, the fatcats who get the 
happy ending? I mean there the ones who made all the money during the 
war and now they are going to make all the money during the peace...
Are you going to declare an amnesty for crimes related to people who 
fought against that war or is it just the guys that massacred women 
and children who get to come I want an answer, Bill! Your the chief, 
you make the decisions, and soon Bill.

Joe Smith:   Robert Malecki has not received a response from the 
Clinton White House. Malecki now lives in Sweden, not to far south 
of the arctic circle. He has several children here in the Cleveland 
area, one of them Heather Snyder, was about 2 years old when her 
father went underground. She only re-established contact with him 
last year, after hearing about an interview with him on National 
Public Radio's weekend edition SUNDAY. Heather Snyder joined me 
in the studio when I talked with her father.

Robert M.   I was living in Cleveland. I was happily married. I 
had an honourable discharge from the Navy. I had a GI loan, was 
buying a house, paying off a house and I was working in the Chrysler 
division of General Motor's, out near the Ford plant I think it is. 
And well this war came and there were a lot of people demonstrating. 
There was those little kids that were getting bombed, bombed out with 
Napalm, there were people giving out leaflets and I got involved 
against the war. I was beginning to realise that a lot of the kids 
that were getting drafted were working class kids, kids that were 
working in my factory and in my neighbourhood. I mean, all the middle 
class kids, who had and education, they were running to Canada, they 
were running to England, like Bill Clinton did. It was the poor kids 
and black kids that were going over there to die. And we wanted to 
stop that. We couldn't run anywhere, basically, not at all. Many of 
us didn't have an education, didn't think about what was going on. 
A lot of us were patriotic, normal Americans and things like this. 
And someone started doing operations against the draft boards in 
and around the Ohio area. We took responsibility for the destruction 
of draft files of people being called up to go to Vietnam and die. 
Basically it was because it was working class kids and black kids 
who were dying in Vietnam. It wasn't rich kids.

Joe Smith:   Now what do you mean by you started taking actions 
against draft boards?

Robert M.   Well, a number of draft boards were hit around the 
country, including a lot of draft boards in Ohio and we held press 
conferences in front of the federal building in downtown Cleveland. 
We felt responsible for these actions and we said exactly why we 
felt responsible. The rich people making money out of this war and 
it was the poor kids going off it was the poor kids who were dying 
and we thought it was unfair. We wanted to end this war. Sending 
poor kids to Vietnam. They couldn't run off to Canada, run to 
England and that's basically what we were saying. And I actually.... 
and they couldn't prove anything, but we officially took 
responsibility, everytime there was an action. And that was a big 
problem for the F.B.I. and the C.I.A., because they couldn't catch 
us, but, and finally we did get caught and it was, we were on our 
way to a big demonstration in Washington D.C. and it was a big 
Moratorium,  in 69 against the war and I think that it was in 
November 69 that there was a  big action against Dow Chemical. 
Dow Chemical was this big corporation that produces chemicals and 
were producing Agent Orange and they were producing Napalm used to 
bomb the Vietnamese and a big action took place. I took 
responsibility for going into the Dow Chemical  office in Washinton 
D.C. and destroying all their data banks for their International 
work and there were numerous other actions against Dow Chemical 
around this particular time and we held a press conference with 
many other people across the country saying we took responsibility 
for this action and it helped. Because Dow Chemical after this 
stopped making Napalm, they stopped making Agent Orange, they made 
a public announcement that they weren't going to make it anymore, 
so it worked... You know, things like this did work and it ended 
the draft cause they couldn't draft people. So many draft boards 
were being hit around the country, they couldn't draft people, 
they were forced... I think it was Johnson who stopped the draft 
system, professional army after that. I am not sure if it was Johnson 
or Nixon but it did end the draft around that time also, so it was 
pretty successful and we were pretty proud of that. Because it was 
only working class kids and poor kids who died in the war.

Joe Smith:   You talk about ransacking the Dow Chemical offices 
(YES) Was there any other violent acts that you did.

Robert M:   You call this violent acts? responsibility for the actions..

Joe Smith:   But what other

Robert M.   I don't know what you call violence, violence against 
pieces of paper, against corporations that were producing Napalm? 
You know what Napalm did in Vietnam. You know what Napalm is? When 
it hits you, it burns right through you, right though you arm, there 
was one picture. I still see it today, of a woman running down a road 
in Vietnam carrying a child that's been burned by napalm, that's 
violence!

Joe Smith:   Well, let me rephrase the question. (OK) Did you do 
anything that would be considered a criminal violation in this country?

Robert M.   Well, I was caught coming out of a draft board in 
Maryland, Silver Springs,MD and I was arrested by the police, 
we were coming out with a bunch of orders and files, ordering 
people to Vietnam, and being drafted, and things like this. We were 
going to take them to a demonstration and give them out to people 
to demonstrate, they could do what they wanted to, we were caught 
by the police and there was a big trial in Maryland and our defence 
was we had every right to destroy these pieces of paper, because 
what was going on in Vietnam was criminal. It was basically compared 
with what was going on in Germany, during the Second World war, 
these were war crimes, that was our defence and of course the 
prosecution said we broke the law. We broke the law and we were 
convicted and we, I got 12 years for that. Three years on four 
counts and they ran consecutively,you did three years and I was 
sent to a maximum security prison in Lewisburg PA.  There, in that 
prison, we were, I was with a lot of people. The Berrigan brothers, 
Jimmy Hoffa, there were a lot of black panthers there. A huge prison, 
it was maximum security prison, with huge walls around it and gun 
towers and so I was sitting 26 months and after  27 months I was 
going to be freed, because you yet .. if your a nice guy and don,t 
cause any trouble you are freed after two thirds of your sentence. 
So 27  months of three years is like two thirds of that time. But 
just at that time the  government came down with a huge conspiracy 
trial against Phil Berrigan and  some nuns. Phil was in the prison, 
sitting in the prison they were saying that  (from) Lewisburg we 
were planning to bomb the White House and to take out the B52,s  
in Guam. I wasn't charged, but Phil Berrigan was charged, and a lot  
of other prisoners and nuns and I was going to be a defence witness 
in that case and also I was going to get out and it was then, 26 
months after I had been in prison, that the government put these 
conspiracy charges on me. and the conspiracy charges , were to bomb 
the Federal Building in Cleveland, Ohio, to bomb the electric plant 
in Cleveland,Ohio, none of this ever happened, it was a conspiracy 
they claimed. Just like Phil Berrigan was planning to bomb the White 
House. Right and this is a tactic the government had, to get radicals 
off the street. People who were prepared to go on the line, put their 
lives on the line, to try and stop the war. They hit everybody with 
conspiracy charges. Conspiracy means if you plan to do something, 
if you talk about something, its just like you did it and you get 
25 years, and that's what I am charged with today. Actually, I am 
not charged with anything I took responsibility for. I  went to 
prison for the things they caught me for. What I am charged for 
is planning  to do something that never happened.

Joe Smith:   When did you decide to leave the country?

Robert M.   Well, the decision was made, basically, I was staying 
around, we were discussing the possibility whether I was going to 
be a defence witness in Harriburg, for Phil Berrigan and his nuns, 
that were charged with this huge case, it was all over the newspapers 
in the United States and we decided not to. I was a regular guy, a 
worker, in a factory, you know, if I went on trial it wasn't like 
Phil Berrigan going on trial, where they make a case and bring alot 
of people. I was Bob Malecki, nobody. So we decided I could not do   
any more, (except get) 25 years in prison for conspiracy. So I went 
underground. I disappeared and at this particular time we knew in 
Sweden that the prime minister had come out against the war, 
everybody new it, against the war by  this time.There were millions 
of people in the streets, demonstrating against the war. The Prime 
Minister of Sweden was marching with the Vietnamese against this 
bombing that Nixon and Johnson were ordering and so I came here and 
I applied for political asylum which I didn't get. I got humanitary 
asylum and so I have been living here since then and there are alot 
of other people that came here. There are a lot of deserters that 
came here, working class kids, a lot of black kids, er I have some 
friends here; He was in Cambodia when Kissinger and all these people 
were claiming there aren't any Americans in Cambodia. He was flying 
helicopter missions and bombing the hell out of these people. He's 
living here today, he can't go back. There is a lot of people out 
there, people in Vietnam who joined the other side, they got their 
families there, they can't go back. And these kids, you know these 
people, they were going to Vietnam, they came to Germany first, and 
there were huge demonstrations in front of the  bases and they felt 
the horror, they were beginning to understand:  "this is all  wrong" 
and the only choice they had you know was to desert, so they really 
got screwed, considered traitors to the country. All these draft 
dodgers and Bill Clinton, you know got amnesty. All these kids 
went to Canada, they got amnesty. Carter gave them amnesty like, 
the deserters, they had to beg, they  had to get down on their 
hands and knees and say "I'm sorry" and they might  get back and 
get six months in jail or something like this. And there are people  
like myself who went a little longer and we are never going to get 
back and we are NEVER GOING TO APOLOGISE EITHER, BECAUSE WE THINK WE 
WERE RIGHT and the United States government was wrong and there are 
a number of other things about amnesty. Take a look at Richard Nixon. 
I was saying that Jimmy Hoffa was in prison, well we were trying to 
BUILD A COALITION WITH JIMMY HOFFA the leader of the Teamsters Union 
and  the anti-war movement and the blacks.  There were a lot of black 
radicals in prison at this time. And what happened, Nixon knew what 
was going on, because he had all these spies in the prison, so he 
put the conspiracy charges on us, and he gave Jimmy Hoffa a pardon, 
right! You know, Jimmy Hoffa walked out of prison, he was sitting 
in because Kennedy had put him in jail for 20 years and Nixon made 
him a free man, because he knew what was going to happen, if he 
left him in. and then Jimmy caught it.Carter he went out and he 
gave an amnesty to these middle class kids that went to Canada 
that was fine too, because that was a good choice for these college 
kids, they think that was very good that they did that and then 
there was George Bush. The last thing he did before leaving office, 
he gave everybody amnesty that was involved in the Iran Contras 
affair -that's really horrible - you know those people were caught 
smuggling guns to Iran, the same people who had taken all these 
Americans hostage, at the embassy and they were using the money to 
finance the contra guerrillas, the right wing guerrillas in Latin 
America, that is just incredible. So I want amnesty, I want amnesty 
because I WAS DOING THE RIGHT THING. I WAS AGAINST THIS WAR.

Joe Smith:   As you know, your daughter is sitting here in the 
studio. (Yeah, Hi                                                            


Heather) (I am here, how are you?) (Its been a long time)

Heather:   Yeah.

Robert M.:   22 years. what's your .. because I was in prison 
three years too.

Joe Smith:   What do you think about your daughter?

Robert M.:   Well, what am I surpose to think? How are you surpose 
to think when you haven't seen your daughter since maybe she was a 
year old? And I don't really know what to think! The only thing, I 
think about is their mother. Their mother Mimi, she is a very 
courageous woman, you realise that the F.B.I. and the C.I.A. were 
harassing her for years, knocking on the door, she had to raise 
those kids on welfare, on food stamps, she had to give them all 
the love and care, I wasn't around, I was underground, I might never 
get back, so to  think about the kids, I thought about their mother, 
of course I love my kids,  they are my kids, but, its the mother 
who had to raise them. Mikey is 25, 26, he hates me, basically, 
because he doesn't even know who I was. I didn't exist for him, and 
he is right, partially, because that's the truth for him. So that 
is a real problem, there is a lot of pain, I don't know if we're 
ever going to be able to solve this conflict, because the kids ... 
time's going to have to work it out, we don't know.

Joe Smith:   Heather, I going to ask you the same question, what do 
you think of when you think of your dad?

Heather:   I dunno, I just would really like to meet him. Mm I'm 
going there in May, I've saved enough money to buy the plane ticket 
and meet him there, which is fine. I have two little boys that i,d 
like him to meet. All the stuff in my life, I've done pictures but 
it,s kind of hard to put everything on paper, I send pictures, to 
show what your life's been like, you know, I'm going to be there 
for one week and its like a week compared to a life-time, its not 
a lot, but I am grateful that I have that because I would just like 
to know him, you know, to know him as a person, and I would really 
like to see him, get some type of response you know, even if its a 
no, you know, just so we can be answered, you know, .. I don't know ...

Joe Smith:   What was it like to grow up without him?

Heather:   It was ok, you know, I mean we were basically poor, but 
we that was fine, my mum is a wonderful woman and she did her job, 
she's a mum and a dad, its been a bit hard at times, but she told 
us the truth when we were old enough and .. the best way that she 
could, it hurts I guess, to be honest it was painful, but then the 
reasons that my dad did it. I mean you break the law you go to jail. 
But these people were all dying in this war and if my dad thought 
that he could change something then you know, if you believe in 
something myself if, I don't know what I would do either, so I try 
not to judge, you know I've been angry for too long, but now I have 
today, I am gonna work with, and going to  do what I can. ...

Joe Smith:   You've told me earlier that you weren't too up on the 
details of the Vietnam War, but given what you know of your dad, do 
you think he did the right thing?

Heather:   I do, I think so, yeah. its .. I mean, you can't break 
the law, but its .. he never hurt anyone, paper, he burned paper, 
he destroyed paper, there was a lot of people doing that at the time, 
I understand and things were different then, so I don't know how 
to answer that, I'm 23 years old, I was a baby when this stuff was 
going on, but its as far as I can see he did the right thing, I 
mean, if people's lives were saved from, as a part of that movement, 
a bunch of people, including my dad, then I think it was the right 
thing, cause a lot of people than him were doing it at the time, so...

Joe Smith:   you  wrote a letter to the president.

Heather:   Yes

Joe Smith:   Can you read it to me?